I received this comment on the video "You've made God's house a den of thieves."
Comment
Hi Rob,
I enjoy listening to your thoughts and have started reading some of your books. It’s evident that you have wrestled with these issues at great length, and that knowledge has been given to you in response to your faithfulness.
I hope you won’t mind if my comments call into question some aspects of your approach and views on Jesus Christ and His church.
It seems that you have some issues reconciling the grander vision of the gospel (experiencing a mighty change of heart) with the orthodoxy (ordinances). Because some members of the church (including church leaders) place emphasis on the ordinances of the gospel, or mistakingly see them as ends in and of themselves, to the detriment of experiencing this mighty change of heart, you appear to see them (the ordinances) as unnecessary, or at the very least, secondary. This calls into question the need for an organised church, and necessarily reframes Christ’s approach to saving and exalting souls.
I think all of scripture is abundantly clear about how Christ organises his people. The structure changes from time to time, but the core principles are the same. There is always a presiding High Priest who appoints other servants as directed by Christ. There is wisdom in this order. While it is true that some High Priests don’t magnify their calling, or become “chosen”, they are called to do so.
The ordinances of the gospel have always been administered through priesthood channels. You can’t find examples in scripture where this is not the case. Like you, I agree that Priesthood is a far deeper concept and doctrine than people understand, but one aspect of the priesthood is absolutely the authority to administer ordinances. Of course, the ordinances themselves are not salvific, but they are the appointed way, and do reveal patterns of how to obtain powers of godliness.
Christ appointed apostles to oversee and govern His church. Peter was the presiding High Priest. They were ordained (or called) and became chosen through their faithfulness. Christ re-established this pattern through the prophet Joseph Smith. Stakes mimic this pattern of the presiding High Priest, Presidency, and twelve appointed representatives. The goal of the church is to establish Zion, meaning to establish a people who are one with God and each other, united in truth and love. Leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ are called to establish such a people. The people not responding to prophetic invitations does not mean Christ isn’t at the head, or that it isn’t “true”. It just means that its mission has not yet been accomplished. When we take Christ’s name upon us through continually offering a sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit and keeping our covenants, we pledge to join this mission of uniting the saints in love and truth. The church is “true” in the sense that it’s mission is aligned to the Lord’s and its presiding High Priest has the authority to administer.
Aside from my thoughts on the need for a church, I sense a deeper problem with your approach. In my experience, coming closer to Christ causes us to look upon others with transcendent love. It causes us to speak with greater humility, acknowledging that we are in desperate need of Christ and His grace. It causes us to acknowledge that there is so much we are yet to understand, and that we ought to be patient with others as they navigate an increasingly complex and contentious world.
When I listen to you, in spite of the great knowledge and insight you have obtained, a spirit of love is lacking. I feel no charity in your words. You repeatedly belittle those who don’t yet understand or apply what they understand. You self-aggrandise and consider yourself more inspired than others. Frankly, a lot of what I see in your speech does not resemble the kind of person Christ invites us to become.
I am as eager as the next to “put the record straight” when it comes to doctrine. I am eager to understand the power of faith, the true meaning of repentance, the power of godliness made manifest in ordinances, and what it means to receive a “fullness” of the gift of the Holy Ghost. I want to teach others about the power that they can obtain through Christ. But I also strive to become meek and lowly of heart, to acknowledge that I am an unprofitable servant without Christ, and to reflect that in the humility with which I speak. The most powerful servants of the Lord I have encountered radiate love. I’ve met many knowledgable servants, but many (if not most) don’t speak with the kind of love that is a precursor to change. When we become learned, we begin to think we are wise. And when we think we are wise, we tend to become prideful. And when we become prideful, our hearts cannot be filled with the pure love of Christ.
I hope I’ve articulated my thoughts well. I also hope I haven’t misrepresented your views on things. I will continue reading your books because I know there is so much great knowledge in them. That being said, I’d invite you to reconsider your relationship with the church. I hope that invitation doesn’t sound patronising. There are so many unbeliefs that I need to overcome. But I do believe in Christ’s appointed way, and the strength that comes through understanding what the orthodoxy teaches us about how we obtain power to overcome.
Response
1. A YouTube comment is an appropriate place to respond to the specific points made in the video on which you are commenting, but not a place to put an epistle pushing back on my ministry as a whole.
Location aside, the more material you try to respond to at once, the less likely you'll correctly convey the original points. It's much better to make specific criticisms one at a time and avoid the risk of feeling like you've adequately countered points you haven't.
2. "It seems that you have some issues reconciling the grander vision of the gospel (experiencing a mighty change of heart) with the orthodoxy (ordinances). Because some members of the church (including church leaders) place emphasis on the ordinances of the gospel, or mistakingly see them as ends in and of themselves, to the detriment of experiencing this mighty change of heart, you appear to see them (the ordinances) as unnecessary, or at the very least, secondary. This calls into question the need for an organised church, and necessarily reframes Christ’s approach to saving and exalting souls."
This is a good example of my first point. I have no issues reconciling experiencing a mighty change of heart with the ordinances. I know exactly how that works, having received both and being taught at length about these by the Lord Jesus Christ. I do not see ordinances as unnecessary or secondary, nor do I believe there is no need for an organized church. I strongly disagree with what you suppose is Christ's approach to saving and exalting souls, but it is clear that you don't even know what I believe his approach to be, and so it's difficult to have a discussion about that.
I have not yet shared with others what the Lord has taught me about churches and his kingdom because I am focusing on the things he has told me are prerequisite for that. Therefore, I won't attempt to lay that out here. However, many of the claims you make about the LDS church's organization and purpose are specifically refuted in "Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men." I refer you to that book, and I'm happy to answer any specific rebuttals you might make.
2. "When I listen to you, in spite of the great knowledge and insight you have obtained, a spirit of love is lacking. I feel no charity in your words. You repeatedly belittle those who don’t yet understand or apply what they understand. You self-aggrandise and consider yourself more inspired than others. Frankly, a lot of what I see in your speech does not resemble the kind of person Christ invites us to become."
The gospel is the means for fallen man to come to comprehend everything that lies beyond him, which comes from and is fulfilled in God: what is good, just, true, useful, beautiful, and so on. We can't learn more about these things until we live up to what we already know. God's love is no different than any of his other attributes.
We should always tread with caution in the presumption that we know what is good, just, true, useful, etc., or what God's love is, but we should be particularly doubtful of our ability to ascertain it while still living in sin.
Do you still sin? If so, why would you have any confidence that you would recognize the attributes of God in another person? What reason do you have to believe that you have any idea what God's love is like?
Have you not read that the world will not recognize those who are most like Jesus, just as they did not recognize Jesus, because they do not have the love of the Father in them, as demonstrated by their continued sin?
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3)
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10)
What you have to compare to is in the scriptures. Given the fidelity between what the Lord said and how he said it to what I say and how I say it, I believe the following scriptures apply to your reaction to what I have said and how I have said it:
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (John 8:42)
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (John 5)
The love of God is the apex of the gospel. Repentance is the very beginning. We should be very careful in our confidence that we've summited the mountain if we know we have not yet crossed the foothills.
3. "You self-aggrandise and consider yourself more inspired than others." It is impossible to preach the gospel to others without first believing that you know God better than they do. It is odd that you would make this argument while in the very act of attempting to convince me that your ideas about God are more correct than mine. If you do not consider yourself more inspired than me, why would you write any of this?
If you believe the scriptures, you believe that God reveals himself to people commensurate with their heed and diligence. Do we all exercise equal heed and diligence? Not according to Alma 13.
There are simply too many things that can't be taught without acknowledging this difference. If there were a way for Jesus to teach what he did without proclaiming himself to be closer to the Father than those he taught, he would have. If there were a way for Moses to teach what he did without claiming the same (and, notably, that he was the meekest man) he would have.
Claiming to have more from God is not optional, nor is it about aggrandizing the individual. You have to be better than others in order to show that God is better than others. The definition of holy is to be different and better.
Why would you do anything but rejoice if you found someone more inspired than you? How else do you expect to learn more about God except through those who know him better than you?
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?
21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.
23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.
24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.
25 Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ. (Moroni 7)
If the issue is the potential that the individual is lying, Jesus gave us the test for that in John 7:17.
I have not been bashful about claiming that I have indeed received more from God than others. I could not teach what I do without making the claim. I could not testify that it is possible to be sinless if I had not ceased sinning. I could not testify that it is possible to know Christ in this life if he had not spoken with me many times, appeared to me many times, and if he did not answer every question I ask him or bless me with everything I ask of him. I could not teach mysteries not revealed since the foundation of the world if I didn't first receive them from the Lord.
If I had not received more from God than others, I could only do what others do: give their opinions on how things might be based on their best guess as to what the scriptures mean, and this does not yield the power of God unto salvation. You see, these are not my "views" on "Jesus Christ and His church." These are my experiences with Jesus Christ and my comparison of that to those who claim to be his church, but who have clearly not had those experiences.
Comment
Hi Rob,
I enjoy listening to your thoughts and have started reading some of your books. It’s evident that you have wrestled with these issues at great length, and that knowledge has been given to you in response to your faithfulness.
I hope you won’t mind if my comments call into question some aspects of your approach and views on Jesus Christ and His church.
It seems that you have some issues reconciling the grander vision of the gospel (experiencing a mighty change of heart) with the orthodoxy (ordinances). Because some members of the church (including church leaders) place emphasis on the ordinances of the gospel, or mistakingly see them as ends in and of themselves, to the detriment of experiencing this mighty change of heart, you appear to see them (the ordinances) as unnecessary, or at the very least, secondary. This calls into question the need for an organised church, and necessarily reframes Christ’s approach to saving and exalting souls.
I think all of scripture is abundantly clear about how Christ organises his people. The structure changes from time to time, but the core principles are the same. There is always a presiding High Priest who appoints other servants as directed by Christ. There is wisdom in this order. While it is true that some High Priests don’t magnify their calling, or become “chosen”, they are called to do so.
The ordinances of the gospel have always been administered through priesthood channels. You can’t find examples in scripture where this is not the case. Like you, I agree that Priesthood is a far deeper concept and doctrine than people understand, but one aspect of the priesthood is absolutely the authority to administer ordinances. Of course, the ordinances themselves are not salvific, but they are the appointed way, and do reveal patterns of how to obtain powers of godliness.
Christ appointed apostles to oversee and govern His church. Peter was the presiding High Priest. They were ordained (or called) and became chosen through their faithfulness. Christ re-established this pattern through the prophet Joseph Smith. Stakes mimic this pattern of the presiding High Priest, Presidency, and twelve appointed representatives. The goal of the church is to establish Zion, meaning to establish a people who are one with God and each other, united in truth and love. Leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ are called to establish such a people. The people not responding to prophetic invitations does not mean Christ isn’t at the head, or that it isn’t “true”. It just means that its mission has not yet been accomplished. When we take Christ’s name upon us through continually offering a sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit and keeping our covenants, we pledge to join this mission of uniting the saints in love and truth. The church is “true” in the sense that it’s mission is aligned to the Lord’s and its presiding High Priest has the authority to administer.
Aside from my thoughts on the need for a church, I sense a deeper problem with your approach. In my experience, coming closer to Christ causes us to look upon others with transcendent love. It causes us to speak with greater humility, acknowledging that we are in desperate need of Christ and His grace. It causes us to acknowledge that there is so much we are yet to understand, and that we ought to be patient with others as they navigate an increasingly complex and contentious world.
When I listen to you, in spite of the great knowledge and insight you have obtained, a spirit of love is lacking. I feel no charity in your words. You repeatedly belittle those who don’t yet understand or apply what they understand. You self-aggrandise and consider yourself more inspired than others. Frankly, a lot of what I see in your speech does not resemble the kind of person Christ invites us to become.
I am as eager as the next to “put the record straight” when it comes to doctrine. I am eager to understand the power of faith, the true meaning of repentance, the power of godliness made manifest in ordinances, and what it means to receive a “fullness” of the gift of the Holy Ghost. I want to teach others about the power that they can obtain through Christ. But I also strive to become meek and lowly of heart, to acknowledge that I am an unprofitable servant without Christ, and to reflect that in the humility with which I speak. The most powerful servants of the Lord I have encountered radiate love. I’ve met many knowledgable servants, but many (if not most) don’t speak with the kind of love that is a precursor to change. When we become learned, we begin to think we are wise. And when we think we are wise, we tend to become prideful. And when we become prideful, our hearts cannot be filled with the pure love of Christ.
I hope I’ve articulated my thoughts well. I also hope I haven’t misrepresented your views on things. I will continue reading your books because I know there is so much great knowledge in them. That being said, I’d invite you to reconsider your relationship with the church. I hope that invitation doesn’t sound patronising. There are so many unbeliefs that I need to overcome. But I do believe in Christ’s appointed way, and the strength that comes through understanding what the orthodoxy teaches us about how we obtain power to overcome.
Response
1. A YouTube comment is an appropriate place to respond to the specific points made in the video on which you are commenting, but not a place to put an epistle pushing back on my ministry as a whole.
Location aside, the more material you try to respond to at once, the less likely you'll correctly convey the original points. It's much better to make specific criticisms one at a time and avoid the risk of feeling like you've adequately countered points you haven't.
2. "It seems that you have some issues reconciling the grander vision of the gospel (experiencing a mighty change of heart) with the orthodoxy (ordinances). Because some members of the church (including church leaders) place emphasis on the ordinances of the gospel, or mistakingly see them as ends in and of themselves, to the detriment of experiencing this mighty change of heart, you appear to see them (the ordinances) as unnecessary, or at the very least, secondary. This calls into question the need for an organised church, and necessarily reframes Christ’s approach to saving and exalting souls."
This is a good example of my first point. I have no issues reconciling experiencing a mighty change of heart with the ordinances. I know exactly how that works, having received both and being taught at length about these by the Lord Jesus Christ. I do not see ordinances as unnecessary or secondary, nor do I believe there is no need for an organized church. I strongly disagree with what you suppose is Christ's approach to saving and exalting souls, but it is clear that you don't even know what I believe his approach to be, and so it's difficult to have a discussion about that.
I have not yet shared with others what the Lord has taught me about churches and his kingdom because I am focusing on the things he has told me are prerequisite for that. Therefore, I won't attempt to lay that out here. However, many of the claims you make about the LDS church's organization and purpose are specifically refuted in "Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men." I refer you to that book, and I'm happy to answer any specific rebuttals you might make.
2. "When I listen to you, in spite of the great knowledge and insight you have obtained, a spirit of love is lacking. I feel no charity in your words. You repeatedly belittle those who don’t yet understand or apply what they understand. You self-aggrandise and consider yourself more inspired than others. Frankly, a lot of what I see in your speech does not resemble the kind of person Christ invites us to become."
The gospel is the means for fallen man to come to comprehend everything that lies beyond him, which comes from and is fulfilled in God: what is good, just, true, useful, beautiful, and so on. We can't learn more about these things until we live up to what we already know. God's love is no different than any of his other attributes.
We should always tread with caution in the presumption that we know what is good, just, true, useful, etc., or what God's love is, but we should be particularly doubtful of our ability to ascertain it while still living in sin.
Do you still sin? If so, why would you have any confidence that you would recognize the attributes of God in another person? What reason do you have to believe that you have any idea what God's love is like?
Have you not read that the world will not recognize those who are most like Jesus, just as they did not recognize Jesus, because they do not have the love of the Father in them, as demonstrated by their continued sin?
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3)
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10)
What you have to compare to is in the scriptures. Given the fidelity between what the Lord said and how he said it to what I say and how I say it, I believe the following scriptures apply to your reaction to what I have said and how I have said it:
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (John 8:42)
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (John 5)
The love of God is the apex of the gospel. Repentance is the very beginning. We should be very careful in our confidence that we've summited the mountain if we know we have not yet crossed the foothills.
3. "You self-aggrandise and consider yourself more inspired than others." It is impossible to preach the gospel to others without first believing that you know God better than they do. It is odd that you would make this argument while in the very act of attempting to convince me that your ideas about God are more correct than mine. If you do not consider yourself more inspired than me, why would you write any of this?
If you believe the scriptures, you believe that God reveals himself to people commensurate with their heed and diligence. Do we all exercise equal heed and diligence? Not according to Alma 13.
There are simply too many things that can't be taught without acknowledging this difference. If there were a way for Jesus to teach what he did without proclaiming himself to be closer to the Father than those he taught, he would have. If there were a way for Moses to teach what he did without claiming the same (and, notably, that he was the meekest man) he would have.
Claiming to have more from God is not optional, nor is it about aggrandizing the individual. You have to be better than others in order to show that God is better than others. The definition of holy is to be different and better.
Why would you do anything but rejoice if you found someone more inspired than you? How else do you expect to learn more about God except through those who know him better than you?
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?
21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.
23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.
24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.
25 Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ. (Moroni 7)
If the issue is the potential that the individual is lying, Jesus gave us the test for that in John 7:17.
I have not been bashful about claiming that I have indeed received more from God than others. I could not teach what I do without making the claim. I could not testify that it is possible to be sinless if I had not ceased sinning. I could not testify that it is possible to know Christ in this life if he had not spoken with me many times, appeared to me many times, and if he did not answer every question I ask him or bless me with everything I ask of him. I could not teach mysteries not revealed since the foundation of the world if I didn't first receive them from the Lord.
If I had not received more from God than others, I could only do what others do: give their opinions on how things might be based on their best guess as to what the scriptures mean, and this does not yield the power of God unto salvation. You see, these are not my "views" on "Jesus Christ and His church." These are my experiences with Jesus Christ and my comparison of that to those who claim to be his church, but who have clearly not had those experiences.